Will Chamberlain on Heritage: "That statement sucks" (10-31-2025--Hour2)

What's going on? Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. It is heard live every day from noon to three on WBT Radio in Charlotte. And if you want exclusive content like invitations to events, the weekly live stream, my daily show prep with all the links, become a patron, go to dpeakclendershow dot com. Make sure you hit the subscribe button. Get every episode for free right to your smartphone or tablet. And again, thank you so much for your support. I'd like to welcome back to the program. Will Chamberlain. He is the senior counsel at the Article three Project. He is also a vice president of External Affairs at the Edmund Burke Foundation and that's the organizer of the National Conservatism Conference. Will, how are you today, sir? Welcome back, doing great, Thanks for having me sure. I appreciate you making some time for us today. So I haven't even gotten a chance to play this audio from the statement that was issued by the president of the Heritage Foundation, Kevin Roberts. But I did see I did see your I mean, I've listened to the statement. I haven't got a chance to play it on the show yet, but you wrote on Twitter. I'm going to quote your tweet here. This statement sucks, right, So yeah, why does it? Why is it so? Why is it bit? It's just I mean, it's really traceable to one particular statement where he claims that the people who are critical of Tucker Carlson are part of a quote venomous coalition and that they're sewing discord. And I think that fundamentally reversus victim and offender here, right, there's nothing I mean what Hucker did by bringing on Nick one is and not just that, but talking about how he despised Christian Zionists. Well, Christian Zionists make up a huge chunk of the Republican Party. I mean you could call many, and maybe most evangelical Christians would call themselves Zionists too. They're fond of Israel, they believe in the importance of Israel remaining as it is, and sort to start there, that's an insanely divisive thing to do. It's a it's a remarkable I mean, everything about that interview was very divisive, and so the people who are rightly outright raged by it aren't a venomous coalition. It's offensive to suggest that they are. And so there's there's and there was no need for a gratuitous swipe that the people who don't like what Tucker did or had an interview with Tucker, And especially as someone who is in a position like Kevin is running the Heritage Foundation, which is one of the biggest thinkings on the right and sort of positions itself at the center of the conservative movement, it's a really bizarre thing to do. And so, yeah, it was a crap. It was a cretty statement. I don't hate Kevin Roberts, I don't. I don't dislike him at all, but like, objectively, it was just a bad statement. Why do you think he made it? Why? Why did like? What's the what's the motivation? What do you think I think there's this this it's it's part of a lingering online meme, something you would call no enemies to the right, the idea that you know, it's just you shouldn't be in a position where you're punching right at all. And my suspicion he's calling getting a lot of calls from donors who are really angry about Tucker and want him to make a statement. I don't necessarily think he needs to make one. I think he could have just stayed quiet. But if you're going to make a statement, you probably shouldn't insult the people who are rightly mad about what Tucker said. So and you mentioned this term Christian Zionists, and as best I can tell, people are when when people use this term, not like you just used it, but when I'm seeing like, for example, you know, I just got a message because I've been talking about this for the last hour, as well says heard your show blasting Tucker and Heritage Foundation, which I didn't actually blast Tucker or Heritage Foundation. I can't believe it took me this long to figure you out. Israel First policies are dead. It seems like there's a conflation between Christian Zionist and Israel First over America First. Is that am I? Am I misreading this? No? I mean there's this there's a default assumption there that's for some reason, the continuation of the US Israel partner Israeli partnership is bad for the United States. That's obviously not true. Like what exact alliance are are we foregoing that is so valuable by being our relationship with Israel? What Iran? Do people think that? I mean beyond the sort of nastiness of Iran doing things like funding you know, the terrorist groups all around the region who shoot missiles in American ships. What exactly does Iran produce that we're so in need of. I mean, Israel just to like one example of many, Israel came up with the iron Dome program. We helped them with it, but in exchange we were the beneficiaries and get their technology. Israel just developed a state of the art laser guided program for shooting down drones and missiles, which is going to be very important for America to have access to really good, cheap technology in that front, because if you're not using lasers, then you have to use missiles yourself, and the missiles, the defensive missiles to shoot down drones and other missiles are way more expensive than the missiles themselves. That's that was the problem Israel was dealing with during its War of the Run. So there's a lot of I mean, Israel's a military superpower and in its own right in terms of its technology, it's it's certainly an intelligence superpower in terms of its ability to locate and it's adversaries. There's a lot of reasons we would want these people to be our ally, they're the most they're formidable force in the Middle East. So just even beyond you know, there's again this assumption that supporting the US Israel alliance is bad to the United States. That's just wrong. It's just wrong on the facts. Right, and an alliance does not mean subservience. I'm always perplexed at this idea. I understand when I hear like Dave Smith say that, you know, there Israel as a client state of ours or something like that makes more sense than the inverse, which is somehow are we are controlled by Israel, which is. Yeah, And I mean honestly, both are not true. I mean, right, they're a junior partner. They have their own independent, sovereign interests. They're not you know, they they want to maintain good relationships of the United States. It's very important to them because I mean, everybody in Europe has lost their mind on this question. They're worried about those countries turning straight is Amist. So they care very much about the American alliance, that's obvious, but to do a lot of other countries. Yeah, you then talked a little bit about on Twitter about gatekeeping, and this is one of those things where It's like anytime I say like I would not being a host. For as long as I've been a host, I understand it's my show. I can bring on anybody I want to bring. I brought you on. I am quote platforming you, right. And so this idea that, oh, you know, Tucker Carlson shouldn't platform a guy like Nick Fuentes, right, And I think it depends on and I'm not making that case that he shouldn't bring whatever guest he wants on. It's just I'm going to now have a view of the host depending on how the host conducts the interview. And the way Tucker conducted the interview with Fuentes, it was not combative like it was with Ted Cruz for example. It wasn't like that. So what about this idea that like that the Christian Zionists or the israel First Lobby, or whoever it is that is the boogeyman of the of the hour that they're trying to, you know, gate keep and trying to keep Tucker Carlson from just having conversations and just ask questions. Well, I mean, the thing I would say is Tucker's doing the same thing, right, Tucker doesn't really have prosionist voices on his show, and the only one he had that I can recall off the top of my head is Ted Cruz, who was and he had a really adversarial, almost bad faith interview with Ted Cruz. He was never a hostile to any of his guests who were vindicted towards Israel as he was to Ted Cruz. So he's trying to I mean, he's trying to gate keep himself. He's just trying to create a different place where the gate is. He wants to make this, as far as I can tell, he wants to make supporter opposition to Israel the sort of central litmus test of the right. He's just on the other side of it. In that sense, he's the mirror image of the people who want to make support for Israel the litmus test of the right. I don't think it should be a litmus test of any kind. But I also think that the question of whether or not you bring on Nick Fez is way bigger than supporter opposition to Israel. Nick's a nasty figure because he says a whole bunch of nasty things about any number of people it talks about wanting to give the death penalty to perfites Jews here in the United States. That's a crazy thing to say. Oh yeah, I read some of the stuff, some of his greatest hits in the last hour. Let's see here, he's a big fan of Stalin. He literally said that to Tucker Carlson and it got no pushback whatsoever. Stalin, you know, responsible for tens of millions of people's deaths, says Hitler. Was cool. Hitler was awesome. Women are coy. They want me to rape them, they want me to beat the bleep out of them. Called Charlie Kirk a B word. He's a fake patriot, anti Christian, anti white. Let's focus all our firepower on Charlie Kirk, Like, these are the things he talked about, you know, going in and taking over Turning Point USA. And I've already done it. I already got my gropers into that organization, and you know, to kill the thing that he loves most. And I'm at a loss to understand why Tucker Carlson would not have anything to say about any of that stuff to this person sitting across the table from him, Given that Carlson spoke at Charlie Kirk's memorial. He appeared at Turning Point USA events after Charlie Kirk's death. I just I don't understand what's going on. Yeah, I mean I think it was really a betrayal of Charlie. It was betrayal of Charlie's memory. I knew Charlie Kirk personally. The reason I knew him is because I was helping and working with him when he was fighting off Nick six years ago. I mean Nick. And the thing about Nick too, it's like, you know, there's this whole well we need to you know, not punch right. It's like, well, is Nick even to the right of us? No, he's right. Like the guy supported Kamala Harrison twenty twenty four, he's on record posting about how he was going to recruit people to vote for Kamala and Michigan. In September of twenty twenty four, on records saying he didn't vote for Trump. Like, Okay, you're not on the team. Why are we so invested in making sure we don't offend your sensibilities or keep you in the tent. You're not in the tent, So why so? Is what I keep coming back to, Like, I know what's the why. I mean, the why is the way that for some people, opposition to Israel becomes the cent animating question of their politics. And it's strange, like it's a theory that it's just like every other bad thing that happens or every other thing they disagree with in terms of American policy can be traced to the root cause of somehow, either Israel or Jews meddling and causing this problem. That's just not true, I mean, and I think the Trump administration proves that, Like Trump administration has been extraordinarily pro Israel, but at the same time, it's been extremely good at accomplishing all the goals that the right has wanted accomplished for a long time, closing the border, increasing mass deportations, you know, rooting out di you, I mean, you name it. The Trump administration has been on top of it. And they're all but they're also Israel administration. That two things aren't correlated. It's just a but if you're so, if you believe that somehow it's Jews and Israel behind all the problems in the world, then you decide, well, if you're not on the right side of that issue, then you're just no matter what your positions are everywhere else, you're my adversary. Yeah, and you're being paid. I've learned this also that I'm somehow right the payroll, which is weird. I never get any money, so. Yeah, i'd be I mean, I'm a ton of backpaying. I wish I got I was getting paid, it'd be great. I just don't think they have enough money. They don't like it's a small country. People forget that it's only like sixteen million Jews in the world. Yeah, and it's often the other pernicious thing this is just a random point, is that you're using you're worried about the sixteen million Jews in the world. Mean, we know there are one point six billion Muslims who also would like to impose their political will on the United States, and they're about to win the mayoralty of New York. So I think there's a much bigger threat coming from that direction. Frankly, if you're concerned about the continuation of American values. Well, and the was it the Minneapolis mayor guy from Somalia who's like doing entire speeches in his native language, draped in in his Somali flag, saying he's you know, going to defend Somalia. It's just if you were to see something like that from an Israeli running for American office, people's heads would explode. It's oh yeah, it's be insane and there's I mean, no American Jew would ever do something like that ever, it would be insane. Yeah. Chamberlain, Senior counsel at the Article three project. I appreciate your time as always. Well, thanks so much, thanks for having me all. I take care. You know. Stories are powerful. They help us make sense of things, to understand experiences. Stories connect us to the people of our past while transcending generations. 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The National Review had a editorial about this yesterday. I ran out of time to start going into it yesterday, but I do have it here. But first I do want to play for you the statement from the president of the Heritage Foundation. Guy's name is Kevin Roberts, Okay, And the background here is that a rumor spread the other day, so this would have been about two days ago. A rumor spread that the Heritage Foundation might be distancing itself from Tucker Carlson after the interview this softball interview, or as William Jacobsnate Legal Insurrection calls it, the tongue bathing interview that he gave to Nick Fouentes, because the Heritage Foundation website appeared to have scrubbed any reference to Tucker Carlson from their TC from their TC Network sponsorship donation page. Okay, so for some reason the website page was taken down. Somebody noticed this and they thought, oh, Heritage Foundation is distancing itself from Carlson. That's what prompted Kevin Roberts to issue the following statement. I'll have more to say on this in the coming days. You got today. I want to be clear about one thing. Christians can critique the state of Israel without being anti Semitic, and of course anti Semitism should be condemned. My loyalty as a Christian and as an American is to christ first and to America always. When it serves the interest to the United States to cooperate with Israel and other allies, we should do so with partnerships on security, intelligence, and technology. But when it doesn't, Conservatives should feel no obligation to reflexively support any foreign government, no matter how loud the pressure becomes from the globalist class or from their mouthpieces in Washington. Okay, hang on the globalist class. They were the ones that just like backed off of supporting Israel. Like, who are these globalists that he's talking about? This is why Will Chamberlain He's saying this venomous coalition. Who are these people you're talking about, and this idea that they that conservatives are reflexively defending Israel or something, well, I mean, if it's against an anti Semite, you just said yourself there that anti Semitism should be condemned. And Nick Fuentes is an anti Semite proudly, so he says all of the things that anti Semites would say. The Heritage Foundation didn't become the intellectual backbone of the conservative movement by canceling our own people or policing the consciences of Christians, and we won't start doing that now. We don't take direction from comments on x though we are grateful for the robust free speech debate. We also don't take direction from members or donors, though we are inherently grateful for their support, and we're adding more every day. This is the robust debate we invite with our colleagues, our movement, friends, our members, and the American public. We will always defend truth, We will always defend America, and we will always defend our friends against the slander of bad actors who serve someone else's agenda. That includes Tucker Carlson, who remains and as I have said before, always will be a close friend of the Heritage Foundation. The venomous coalition attacking him are sewing division. Attempt to cancel him will fail. All right, So hang on, does that just go one way the sewing division. When Carlson says that he despises quote Christian Zionists, that's not sewing division, knowing that there's like a whole chunk of people on the right who would consider themselves to be Christians as well as Zionists, which just means you want Israel to have their own country. Right, that's not divisive. So Carlson gets to say that stuff not divisive. People get to say, hey, I don't think you should platform the Nazi lover the bootlooker for Hitler, and that's divisive. Just so I'm clear here, Heritage. Most importantly, the American people expect us to be focusing on our political adversaries on the left, not attacking our friends on the right. Tell that to talk. I disagree with and even at poor things that Nick Flints says. But canceling him is not the answer either. No one's saying cancel him. This is these are straw men that no one's saying, deplatform the guy. Make sure, we can't post anything. Nobody's saying that, not that I've heard, not that I've seen. When we disagree with the person's thoughts and opinions, we challenge those ideas and debate. Unless you're on Tucker's show and you're an anti semit I guess you. Have seen success in this approach as we continue to dismantle the vile ideas of the left. As my friend Vice President Vance said last night, what I am not okay with is any country coming before the interest of American citizens. And it is important for all of us, assuming we are American citizens, to put the interest of our own country first. That's where our allegiance lies, and that's where it will stay. Yeah, nobody is saying anything other than that. Oh and by the way, Nick Fuente said, even JD. Vance has to pander to us. Now, all right, if you're listening to this show, you know I try to keep up with all sorts of current events, and I know you do too. And you've probably heard me say get your news from multiple sources. Why well, because it's how you detect media bias. Which is why I've been so impressed with Ground News. It's an app and it's a website and it combines news from around the world in one place, so you can compare coverage and verify information. You can check it out at check dot ground, dot news slash pete. I put the link in the podcast description too. I started using ground News a few months ago and more recently chose to work with them as an affiliate because it lets me see clearly how stories get covered and by whom. The blind spot feature shows you which stories get ignored by the left and the right. See for yourself check dot ground, dot news slash pete. Subscribe through that link and you'll get fifteen percent off any subscription. I use the Vantage plan to get unlimited access to every feature. Your subscription then not only helps my podcast, but it also supports ground News as they make the media landscape more transparent. Noah Rothman a writer at The National Review or I guess just National Review. He says, I think back to the Republican National Convention, the most pro Israel American political event I've ever seen, and I see how the rhetoric and esthetics of that event has tracked with the Trump administration's policies, and I wonder are a handful of angsty gen z men and an army of Pakistani bots really going to engineer a tectonic political realignment inside this GOP. Later and you heard Will Chamberlain make reference to this. I think it was Will, Maybe it was James last Hour. This whole idea of no enemies to the right, it's absurd. It's a stupid, stupid philosophy, because who's to decide who is to your right? Is it just you? So? What you? So? Anybody to my right gets to punch me, but I never get to punch them because they are quote to my right, which is absurd because they're calling themselves the right, but the things that they are proposing have never been associated with the right. So that's why I say this is a stupid idea. Rothman says it's a false premise. He has a better way with words than I do. He says, these people are not to my right. They have zero interest in limited government, fiscal prudence, recognizing degeneracy, encouraging character formation through discipline and forbearance, believing in and enforcing consequences for one's actions, and being morally accountable to one's maker. Just provocative jerks. That's not a right of center trait. It's just anti social. Yeah, there are a lot of people that I have come across in this line of work that are just that provocative jerks. They are not right of center, they're just antisocial. They they want to you know, they'll call in, they'll text me, they'll email, and they just want to denigrate crap on people. And they think, oh, you know, I saw this, I saw this line on Facebook, and so I'm going to send it to you and hahaha, I'm so funny. But they that's not something that is that that makes you of the right. Being a poop poster on four Chan. It doesn't make you maga, it doesn't make you of the right, It doesn't make you conservative. So Ray, welcome to the show. Hello right, Hello Pete. First, I had something quick to say whoever led into Ham's traffic for football. He said something about he could make a joke of the pennies, and well, probably we don't have sense anymore. And I just wanted to say I might have been boomber bon cannon. Uh. I was going to say a penny for his thoughts, but maybe might have to now start saying a nickel for your thoughts. But the point I was taking in about was regarding this Heritage Foundation and Tucker Coffin h the last segment, I think he played a SoundBite that were Heritage said that they Tucker has always been our biggest friend or close friend. And about four years ago, I imagine, I was listening to Tucker on one of his shows one evening and he was saying something about, you know, you probably gave to Heritage Foundation and they're not what you think they are, and something to the effect we shouldn't give them donations. It's not a direct quote, but he was saying something like that. I just wondered if you could clear me up on that because the last segment, Heritage was saying they've always considered Tucker calls I'm a close friend or something. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not aware of the comment that you're referring to. I did not hear that, and I don't know the timeframe on it either, and how it would line up with this Kevin Roberts guy that's leading Heritage. I don't think he's been there for terribly long. But I don't follow Heritage, you know, like who makes up their board and their leadership and all of that stuff. So maybe it was before Kevin Roberts got in there. I don't know. Maybe this is a shift away from that or something, or maybe he personally is friends with Tucker Carlson or something. I don't know. I wish I could give you some insight, but I don't. I don't have any. And all this, all this you're talking about on this mister, is and everything I haven't been able to keep up with. It is kind of you said you were confused, and I feel like it's kind of convoluted in myself. But that's just my comment. Thank you for taking the call. All right, man, have a great weekend. Ray. I appreciate it. Good to hear from you. I've said this on a great many different topics. You know, what is the why? I'm a why guy. I want to know why, and sometimes, you know, I have to resign myself to accept that I don't know and I'm not going to know the why. Sometimes that happens a lot of times that happens, actually, but I can look at what's happening, and I can see the splintering, and I can make guesses. I'm not going to accuse individual people of things that I don't know to be true true, but I can make some guesses, and it seems like there are people, as I went over in the first hour, there are people that may have incentives to drive wedges in the coalition that Donald Trump put together for whatever their own reasons are, whatever their own incentives are, I do not know, but the effect is pretty obvious. It's a splintering of the coalition. And so this is a time for choosing. Here's a great idea. How about making an escape to a really special and secluded getaway in western North Carolina. Just a quick drive up the mountain and Cabins of Asheville is your connection. 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Call or text eight two eight three six seven seventy sixty eight or check out all there is to offer at Cabins Offashville dot com and make memories that'll last a lifetime. If the title A Time for Choosing sounds familiar, it's because that was the name of the speech that Ronald Reagan gave at the Goldwater Barry Goldwaters event. It was. It's an iconic speech by Ronald Reagan, runs about half an hour. Highly recommend you go back and watch it. It's called A Time for Choosing, and that's the name of the piece that National Review wrote the editorial board, A Time for Choosing on anti Semitism. He says Tucker Carlson or the editor's right. Tucker Carlson knee deep already has taken another step into the muck with a friendly interview with Nick Fuentes. The issue isn't merely that Carlson quote platformed a white nationalist influencer. This framing allows Carlson and his defenders to portray the interview and others like it as an effort at open debate as some good faith attempt at engagement with alternative views, which is, by the way, precisely what Heritage President said. The deeper problem is that Carlson did not actually challenge any of Fuentes's noxious views that he has spelled out quite clearly over the years. He's engaged in Holocaust denial, called Hitler really effing cool, said that if his movement gained power, it would execute perfidious Jews. Carlson didn't even need to go back through old clips to find any objectionable statements. Though in his appearance on the show, Fwent has stated that the big challenge to unifying the country against tribal interests was quote organized jewelry in America, and he expressed admiration for Soviet Butcher Joseph Stalin, and he got no pushback from Carlson, unlike the combative interview that Carlson did with Senator Ted Cruz over Israel. Carlson stated during his interview that he thinks Ted Cruz, Mike Huckabee, and other figures who are Christian and support Israel have been infected by a brain virus. That's what he said. He called them Christian Zionists. He said, quote, I dislike them more than anybody because it's Christian heresy, and I'm offended by that. As a Christian. His contempt presumably extends to a swath of Evangelical Christians, the vast majority of whom are strongly pro Israel. It would be easy to dismiss Carlson and his now extensive history of promoting anti Semitism as the handiwork of another personality that's desperate for attention in the online economy, but Carlson is one of the nation's most prominent and influential commentators. After the death of Charlie Kirk, Carlson has become a leading speaker for that organization that Kirk founded, Turning Point USA. When Vice president JD. Vance subbed in as a host on Kirk's podcast after the assassination, Carlson was his guest. Carlson's son, by the way, works for JD Vance. Carlson sway, though, is currently limited by the fact that President Trump, who happens to like Jews and who has been the strongest supporter of Israel of any US president in history, that Trump is in charge of the Republican Party, and ultimately Trump defines MAGA. In June, Trump ignored Tucker Carlson and joined Israel's effort to take out Iran's nuclear program, which was successful in neutralizing a threat that had been looming over the Middle East for decades without any US casualties. You'll recall Carlson had predicted that it would trigger World War III and that it could kill thousands of Americans. Within a week, Trump dismissed him as quote Kookie Tucker Carlson by the way side note, people may be wondering what's happened to Marjorie Taylor Green. Why is she's saying the things she's saying. I saw somebody who is in the know and their theory, I will say, I don't know how much evidence they have to support this, but they are in the know. They're up there in DC, and they said that she's mad that Trump did not endorse her, told her not to run for US Senate, and that that's animating a lot of what she's doing. I don't know if that's true, just figured I would pass it along. The editors go on to say Trump won't be around forever, though, which is one reason that Carlson Fuentes, Candae Owens, and other online influencers are pushing so hard to try and remake the Republican Party and the Conservative movement into one that is hostile toward Israel and the Jewish people. The idea that it should be seen as the America first position to oppose Israel and American Jewry is not only a moral abomination, it makes no sense. Israel is a technologically innovative, staunchly pro American nation in the heart of a strategically important region. Over the past several years, with US support, Israeli actions have weakened the anti American terrorist group the hutis neutered Hasbala, which you'll recall, slaughtered two hundred and forty one US service members in the nineteen eighty three Marine Barracks bombing and by the way, I would point out Hesbala responsible for more American casualties than any other terrorist organization prior to nine to eleven. Israel also crippled the nuclear program of a nation that has for decades vowed death to America. It isn't pro Israel protesters in the US who are burning American flags and calling for the total eradication, eradication of Western civilization. That's the so called pro Palestine movement. It wasn't Israelis who handed out candy to celebrate the September eleventh attacks. That was also Palestinians. Right. So this line though, that they write here the idea that it should be seen as the America first position to oppose Israel. I think that's the key. They're using Israel as a wedge because they know that younger people are now anti Israel because they've come up through a K twelve education system. They've gone to college campuses, they're peer group they're all, you know, donning the cafeas as a fashion accessory, and they're ignorant of history because again see K twelve education. But this idea that if I support Israel's right to exist, that that somehow means that I am not quote unquote America first. It's a non sequitur. It is logically stupid. Okay, it makes no sense. I can I can like Canada, although they've been trying my patience recently, but you know, I can like Canada. Canada's got a right to exis. I got a beef with the Canadians. A That doesn't mean I'm Canada first, right, Oh, I went to Ireland one time. My ancestral roots are in Ireland. We've visited Ireland. That doesn't make me Ireland first. That's absurd. I'm American. I'm America first. I would like America to have allies because when push comes to shove with the communists, namely the Chinese and their alliance with the Islamists, I would very much like to have as many people as possible on our side. But no, I'm not going to cozy up to the anti Semites and the Nazi boot liquors and the Stalin fanboys. I'm not going to do it. And if that means that MAGA disintegrates and the Republicans are in the wilderness, it will be of their own making because they cannot determine who is good anymore, which is precisely what the woke left did to the Democrats, and you see how that works out for them. All Right, that'll do it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. I could not do the show without your support and the support of the businesses that advertise on the podcast, so if you'd like, please support them too and tell them you heard it here. You can also become a patron at my Patreon page or go to dpetecleanershow dot com. Again, thank you so much for listening, and don't break anything while I'm gone.