Teachers are still mad at me... (06-03-2025--Hour3)

What's going on. Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. It is heard live every day from noon to three on WBT Radio in Charlotte. And if you want exclusive content like invitations to events, the weekly live stream, my daily show prep with all the links, become a patron, go to dpeatclendarshow dot com, make sure you hit the subscribe button. Get every episode for free right to your smartphone or tablet. And again, thank you so much for your support. I was not planning. I did show prep for three different topic multiple topics actually for the whole show. But people really want to keep talking about teacher pay, and so I will keep talking about teacher pay. Lord knows I've talked about it enough over my twenty five year career. Here. So let's start off with Steve. Welcome to the program. Hello Steve, Hey Pete, thanks for shaking my call. Sure, just wanting to correct John something that before breaking made it sound like, Hey, it's such a great gig. It's like a thousand dollars pay increase per year, et cetera, et cetera. Let me challenge you on something. Okay, first, hang on, hang on, I'm going to correct you. I said, it's a pretty good gig. I didn't say it's a great gig. I said it's a pretty good gig. Okay, okay, it's a quote unquote pretty good gig. All right, Okay, find me one company, and I want you to be on this task as well as your listeners. Find me one company in corporate America that freezes your pay for a decade of your career, and then after that you get one pay increase. So it's not like a big pay increase. It's like another two thousand dollars a year. So for those that are keeping score at home in a fifteen year time span, that's half of a thirty year career, right in fifteen years, two pay increases. Find me one, I would say, find me somewhere. I found one. No, no, no, no, no no. I found one. Steve, I found one, Steve. I found one. I found one. Go ahead, yeah, shoot me my career. Why because that's what they do. How are you not getting paid for a decade? You get no pay increases for a decade. Yeah, I'm finding this hard to believe. You can find it hard to believe. I got no base pay increase in my last job work there almost nine years doing what radio? Yeah, what's your requirements? You have to have? What kind of certifications? What kind of certifications? Yeah? Do you have to have a degree, Do you have to have a certification? And do you have to maintain your certification? Well, they used to have the FCC certifications, but they don't really do that in. A yeah, that's that's not true, but go ahead, No, they don't do that. SEC's not part of go ahead? What else? What other kind of certifications you need to maintain your job? No, I need ratings. I need Actually, I have to deliver advertising revenue. That's a metric. That's what it's called. No, Steve, that's a metric that I have to deliver. And if I don't deliver it, I am then let go? Right? Right? Is there a compara? Is there a comparable for you? Is there? If we don't perform? Yeah, we end up. I know it's hard to believe because people think we're a unionized state down here and you can't fire teachers. I said, it's difficult. It's difficult. Yes, of course, there's due process. Huh right, it's not difficult to fire me. Okay, right, okay, Well good, so you don't compare. Are you done for? You don't comp your apples oranges. You it's not apples to orange. And Steve, you asked me for another industry that freezes pay, and I gave you one mine. Now I will tell you also that when the pandemic hit, are my industry cut people's pay and it's in it. Yeah, it's that's the industry norm is they cut everyone's pay ten percent across the board. That's normal. So and I'm not saying that this is that this makes my job harder or better or worse or whatever. I'm just you asked for an example, so I just gave you one. But I understand your argument because way back when the Democrats ran the legislature, they froze teacher pay. Absolutely, they froze it. They froze this, yes, because of the economics. And they write they and they let go a bunch of teachers. Right, teachers work for free for a week, right, And that was wrong, free for a week. And you know what happened, right, and that was wrong. And what happened was the Democrats lost control of the legislature. The Republicans came in and they attempted their reforms, their compensation reforms. They wanted to redo the whole compensation structure. Just terrible. I know teachers opposed it right. Because it was a nightmare. It was a joke. It was an absolute nightmare. Oh I write, I wrote a huge letter to the to the board that was was I can't remember what they're called, it was there. And the reason is they're trying to make a quote unquote confusing system less confusing by offering a more confusing way to evaluate teachers. So what's the best way to pay teachers based. On merit not merit pay? Merit pay is stupid. I know you guys keep running the merit pay. No, I'm asking, I'm asking Steve. So you say there's no way that I can measure a teacher's performance. Listen, now, just simple question. Can I measure a teacher's performance? And if you tell how? Yes, okay, how. Classroom observations there's one, uh, you can call it. You know how people do on their on their on their testing, which I do have a problem with that. The state tests. You can see if the teachers measuring up that way that The problem with the merit pay is, how are you going to have the teachers that want to take on the high risk that the kids are most likely to fail at a test. No teacher is going to want to take that on if they're not going to make any money. If they're not going to they're going to lose their job. But their jobs in jeopardy by taking on the most volable kids in our community. That's what merit pay is. That's a bad idea. So then another teacher, that's not how good. It's all the smartest kids in the in the school building and hey look at me, I'm the grace say all my kids pass my you know, third gradio c's and all that stuff. Yeah, but you got the best and brightest minds of them. So what's the what's the optimal pay system? The optimal pay system? That's a great question, and this could be a soapbox topic for me. But no, if if half the teachers in the United the States leave with them the first five years, that means that means we're constantly the first three to five years, we're constantly getting new teachers. You're not a good teacher until you're three. Your three is what is the It's. Okay, So what's the optimal I already know that what's the optimal system. Well, I would say yearly bonus, like a yearly that back in nineteen ninety seven when I first started on, you can see about a thousand, about seven to fifty one thousand dollars every five years. You need to get the biggest one. But you get the steps down the GP. Yeah, the steps twenty ten. GP came in. They took away the steps. They took it. They didn't take away. Say no, no, no, no away, opinion, fellow, hang on, hang on. They implemented fifteen. Steps, right, the steps were a joke. The fifteen steps are one thousand dollars, which you just said was a good number. Well, one thousand dollars a year for the first years. Now they're about seven to fifty maybe every five years about a thousand. But that's how you know. No, no, no, no, the fifteen you're starting with. The GP did it out what four years ago whatever it was five years ago they did. They they implemented starting pay at thirty five K. Now it's like fifty the thirty five K, and you would get to fifty K over fifteen years with one thousand dollars step increases, not including cost of living increases or anything else that's just guaranteed. Cost of living increases. There isn't cost of. Living in there. What are you talking about their cost of living Carolina. I'm talking North Carolina, Steve, I don't know about South Carolina. I'm talking about North Carolina. It's built in in South Carolina's built in a state constitution that they get cost a living increase. Year in North Carolina. So a constitutional amendment is what you're demanding, that a cost of living increase every year for teachers. There's all kinds of things we can do to say. So you want guarantee, okay, So you want guaranteed increased pay for all teachers, no matter if they suck or not. Listen, if you're going to start first year teachers at fifty thousand, when you have veteran teachers that took twenty years, you know I'm not taking up to that. I'm asking you for what you're so is, and I'm asking if the solution you are proposing is annual increases, whether or not the teachers are good or not. Yes, here's my ocation. So every teacher gets a pay raise forever, and that's. Okay, the solution right now? If you want to keep and retain good teachers in the state of North Carolina is a twenty percent pay increase across the board for all certified teachers. That would take starting pay for a teacher to fifty guys at fifty to sixty and someone that's like fifty five to about sixty five. If you think sixty five thousand a year is too much for a bet, that's just. The state though. You're just talking about the state allocation. Right, yeah, the federal Yeah, no, not the federal. The state, but there are I haven't even touched on the federal funding allocations. I'm just talking about state. Yeah, there isn't federal the state. Yeah, but no, they go to the schools and then they use the money for incentives and stuff. But you've got the state that pays a base and then you have local supplements as well. Right by Charlote mckimurg as the second highest wait county as the first highest counties pretty. Well, right, So what is that number? How does that number figure into your your base pay or do you don't? You just don't even You just ignore the supplements. The local supplement isn't the problem. People aren't lead I'm not saying it's a problem. I'm saying I'm asking it's compensation. But the number that you gave me is just the state baseline. You want all teachers. So when they start off, what do they make? Well, Republicans right now trying to push it to fifty. I think that's fair if they want to push it a fifty fine. So the problem is they're pushing the starting paid of fifty and then the veteran teachers are stuck where they're at. And what I just said people, we're twenty years to get. Because they move in. But do you know the rationale for that? Yes, I know exactly what's the rationale for The rationale is to it's expensive having veteran teachers teaching is the only. Part that's not the rationale. No, that wasn't the rationale. That's the hidden rationale. Oh okay, sorry, So okay, I will give you the other rationales. I'll give you the other rationales for it, which is number one, people move into the administrative roles right in order to make big money. But also big money that's good. Yeah when compared to the teachers, right. Yeah, do you know what a superintendent in Charlotte Mecklenberg makes you get on that path. Not even close, buddy, not even close. They're pushing it. They're pushing half a million. They're pushing half a mill. No, okay, well don't believe me. That's fine. You don't have to believe me, Steve. I appreciate the call. I don't think you're going to win a lot of public support by simply saying more twenty percent across the board, pay raises for everybody. Like I said, I'm happy to pay great teachers one hundred K plus two hundred k. I'm happy to do that, but I'm not going to pay the terrible teachers the same amount of money. So you guys, figure it out. Figure out some plan where I can assess performance. And before you tell me that you can't figure out how to assess performance, that's literally your job. Literally your job is to assess performance. And if you're telling me that you can't figure out a way to do it for yourself, I don't believe you. All right, So spring is here a time of renewal and celebrations. You've got graduations, weddings, anniversaries and the special days for mom and dad. Your family's making memories that are going to last a lifetime. But let me ask you are all of those treasured moments from days gone by? Are they hidden away on old VCR tapes, eight millimeter films, photos slides? Are they preserved? Because over time, these precious memories can fade and deteriorate, losing the magic of yesterday. At Creative Video, they help you protect what matters most. Their expert team digitizes your cherished family moments and transfers them onto a USB drive, freezing them in time so they can be enjoyed for generations to come. 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It was done in order to try to make some point that we have it worse than everybody else, but you don't. And that was my point, is that the things that you experience in your profession, in your industry, other people in other professions and industries also suffer. And sometimes they suffer different things, and sometimes you suffer different things. Right, every job has its pros and cons. And you know, I'm sorry if somebody told you you would get rich being a teacher, I don't know who that person is. That's never been my understanding of the profession. But there were trade offs, and people who get into the line of work love the line of work. That is a similarity that I have with teachers. People who love radio will stay in radio for as long as possible because they love it. We love it, and management knows it, and so like that same thing with police and firefighters. They love the job and the cities know it, and they can pay accordingly. That's the game. So and if the point comes where you're not making enough money to do the thing that you love, then you have a decision to make. All right, let me go back to the phones here, Susie. Welcome to the show. Hey Susie, Hey, how are you doing. I'm good? What's up? Okay? The two things. The first point is that I called and I talked to your screener about the situation is because there is such a cap on how much a teacher can earn, a lot of teachers go into administration right when they're really, really good teachers that really should stay in the classroom because they're needed there. And I was told many times they say, well, all as smart as you are, as much as you know, and you should go into administration. I thought in that to work with students. I didn't get in to tell other people what to do, you know, other adults. So anyway, I think, and especially me, and because you men feel like they be the provider, they're home and they would be they're needed as teatures. But because of the structure of the pay skill, then they are they leave. You see what I'm saying, So there's a brain drain of good teatures into administration so that they can make more money. Okay, if that's the primary motivation, yeah, I know, right, just like you're not motivated by making more money, right you didn't. You said you were staying in the profession because you wanted to keep teaching kids. Yeah, right, so if you, But if you, but if you get to you that that length of service and you've got all of this institutional knowledge, and then you and then at that point you're like, you know what I do want to make more money, then I will go do the administrative side. Yes, But what I'm saying is we need tatures in the classroom and it should not be set up that you can't you can advance unless you leave the classroom. You see what I'm saying. Well, well, hang on a second, no, because you're saying advance. You're not talking about advancement, you're talking about more money. Well, and let me tell you why I was listening to you. I learned a lot about North Carolina, how different they are from South Carolina. Number One, that guy that did tax is that said they make sixty five thousand dollars in pension? I want to know. And that included social Security, he said? He said social Security said their and their retirement pay right combined. He said his clients were pulling in like eighty k. So yeah, probably, yeah, sixty thousand. Well I want to know more. That's difference in South Carolina. But anyway, let me tell you something. Another thing is this, there is no such thing as vacation. I thought over forty years, I never had a vacation day, but I had plenty of unpaid work days. Because when school is out in June, you have to go in there and pack up room. Then you have to take graduate classes on your own time to keep your certification up. And as I got new students because of that, and the students were classified in new ways, and that no child left behind a highly qualified teacher. To be a highly qualified teacher, I had to keep going back and back and back and getting new and new, more and more certifications on my own time, on my own time. See, no, I would see I would agree with you that I wouldn't. I wouldn't incentivize any of that stuff. And I don't like the way that the education establishment constantly shifts gears and says, we're gonna do it a new way. We're going to change this, We're gonna change that. I think that they just rearrange deck chairs on the Titanic by doing that and make everybody scramble. I would prefer to let teachers teach, but I would also then say, if you're not doing a good job, there has to be a way to assess the outcome in order to say you're not doing a good job. She made a point about the tatures that deal't violence students. I dealt with some really violent students. I have been bit I have been spit, I have been slapped. And one time we got this. The bus driver called in and said. Susie, can I put you on hold because I want to hear this story, but I'm late for news, So can I put you on hold and then we'll come back and you can pick it up right there? Okay, okay, thank you? All right, Hang on a second, here's a great idea. How about making an escape to a really special and secluded getaway in western North Carolina. Just a quick drive up the mountain and cabins of Ashville is your connection. Whether you're celebrating an anniversary, a honeymoon, maybe you want to plan a memorable proposal, or get family and friends together for a big old reunion. Cabins of Asheville has the ideal spot for you where you can reconnect with your loved ones and the things that truly matter. Nestled within the breath taking fourteen thousand acres of the Pizga National Forest, their cabins offer a serene escape in the heart of the Blue Ridge Mountains. Centrally located between Ashville and the entrance of the Great Smoky Mountain National Park. It's the perfect balance of seclusion and proximity to all the local attractions with hot tubs, fireplaces, air conditioning, smart TVs, Wi Fi, grills, outdoor tables and your own private covered porch. Choose from thirteen cabins, six cottages, two villas, and a great lodge with eleven king sized bedrooms. Cabins of Ashville has the ideal spot for you for any occasion, and they have pet friendly accommodations. Call her text eight two eight, three, six seven seventy sixty eight or check out all there is to offer at cabins of Ashville dot Com and make memories that'll last a lifetime. We were talking with Susie before the bottom of the UR newscast there and I asked her to hang on. She is still there. Sounds like so, Susie, you were about to tell a story. I think it involved a bus driver or something. Yeah. The bus driver radio Dan that one of the students whom I tut had gone out of control and was screaming and carrying on and hitting. So as they contacted me, and they also contacted the resource to meet the bus. So I ran out the poor tim pulling and as he was getting off, the other students got off her quick and then the UH. As that student was getting off, he was screaming and yeeling, and I used what I had learned to calm him down, how to approach him, how to talk to him, and how to diffuse the situation. Well, the Resource, who have been a deputy share for many, many years, and he said that he was getting there as fast as he could, but he watched what I did and he said that I was able to do things that they taught them at the Police Academy of how to deal with situations like that. Now I want to ask you that. Okay, there, how. Can a you don't do that on the standardized tests? Hang on a second, What was the point, Susie? Hang on? What was the What was the purpose of the of the bus driver story? Okay, the bus, the student was on the bunk. I know the story. What was the point of it? The point is this, I've had to use skills that cannot be measured by standardized test and if my pay is dependent on what the students make on standardized testes, where does that lead? I've got an answer? Yeah, all right, so I can answer that. So when I talk about a merit based system, I'm not talking about it based solely on a single metric. I'm not saying it's only based on test results. I would submit that you could base it on improvement. Right, you measure kids on the way in, you measure them on the way out. Did they show improvement? You can have something like that. You can also do yes testing, You could also do student and parent and coworker and principal evaluations and such. Right, they do this at the college level. So I would submit that there are ways, through various metrics to create some sort of a scoring system, much like you, as a teacher do for your students. You have to grade them. You have to assess their progress, right, you have to assess their mastery of the material. So I would submit that there is a way that you can craft some sort of a system. Now, I'm not telling you how that should be crafted. I will leave it to the people like yourself, who are professional assessors. So I would be. All here, they don't take into consideration the other things we deal with, like I deal with the violent children. Right, Well, then we could put that into the mix. Yeah, we could put that into the mix. You only work fifteen hours a week, you have. Yeah, that's not true, Susie, Susie, that is not true. Well, okay, I'm on. The air, Susie. I am on the air for three hours a day, five days a week. I do minimum two hours of prep for every one hour on air minimum. And that's not including all of the other events that I go and I attend. That does not include the work I do for the podcast. It does not include any of the other things that I am called to do by the employer. Okay, So I have not You just. Not my point, which is what teachers are in the classroom seven hours a day. They have four hours of prep, parent conferences, bush duty, car all those other duties, PATO meetings, And in the summer, which I'll call vacation, which is not a single day of vacation. It just I don't believe you, Susie. I don't believe you that it's not a single day of vacation over the summer. Oh No, vacation means you get paid for it. What I'm saying is this, we're just not employed. And let me tell you when I started, you. Get paid for a full year's salary for a ten month work. No, sure you do, Sure you do shorten. You get short in your check in September, you get short in your check. In October, you get short in your check. You don't get your full check for what you work. They pay it to you in the summer. They hold on, so you do get paid over the summer. But it's the money that I earned in September. Is no, it's an annual. It's no, it's an annual salary, just divided over twelve months. And the reason why they pay you over the summer like that is because teachers complained about not having any income coming in over the summer, so they spread it out over the summer. So it sounds like so it sounds like you're you're not happy with that either. Yeah. See, Susie, Susie, this is about all right, Susie, Susie, this is this was what I was saying earlier. Okay, you are not you say it about our insurance. I paid six hundred. Dollars, Susie. I fit, Susie. I feel like you need to tire. A lot of that insurance just went away. Susie, I retired. I think you need to quit your job. You sound miserable at it. No, no, I talked for forty three years. I loved every minute. Oh so you are retired. Talking about but I'm talking about this. I am taught that. It's like you'd sayers get vacations. We don't get vacation. I don't believe it. I know, Susie. I know, Susie. I know too many teachers, Susie, Susie, I know too many teachers that take vacation. They have vacation days. So when you tell me they don't get vacation, that's not true. They do have vacation. Now, you're saying, oh, well, they don't. They don't. They're not working getting a salary for those summer months, although they are actually drawing a paycheck. But then they have the opportunity to go work at another gig as a waitress. You know who. I can't do that. I don't get six weeks eight weeks straight off where I could take on another gig for two months. I don't get that. And by the way, I don't begrudge you for doing it. I don't have any problem with anybody taking as many opportunities as they can. What I am simply highlighting here, Susie, is a blind spot that you a lot. I'm with the caller Steve and the caller Tina, who are all teachers. You guys have a blind spot for the way things work outside of the K twelve government model. And I'm simply suggesting that maybe it's a pretty good gig the way you've got it. It may be. And by coming hour from six thirty in the morning to four point thirty at night, and I still took paper work home. I have heard, Susie, do you think you're the only person that works at home and takes work home with him. I woke up at five in the morning. I work until on a city council or a county commission night until nine o'clock at night. So it's But this is the thing, Susie. If you love your work, why are you bitching to me about it? I love my work. I don't complain about the hours that I work because I love my work, and if and if it was if I didn't like it, I would stop doing. Of course you are. You're trying to tell me that your job is so much harder than everybody else's. Complaining about your brittiness representation. What was my misrepresentation? Okay, that it's not a good game. Do you have to buy your own sound board and take it to work? You? I operate all of my own stuff. All of this stuff here is mine. I have my own soundboard, my own computers, my own phone lines. I have all of that myself. Yes, Susie, this is my point. Once again, you've illustrated it. Thank you for the call. You have a blind spot. You think that you're doing something that nobody else in the private sector does, and you are wrong. You're wrong. That's all I'm trying to communicate to you. I'm not saying that your job is all sunshine and rainbows. There are definitely massive challenges for teachers. Absolutely, it's difficult work. Not everybody can do it. It is a gift the real people, the real great teachers, It is a gift. I want to reward them. I would love to be able to do so, but I don't want to reward the bad ones. And until you, as an industry can figure out a way that I don't have to pay the crap teachers the same amount as I'm paying the great ones, then we're going to be arguing about this. And and when you make these I've got My emails are blown up with people saying that they deal with the exact same pressures that teachers do in just in different ways. It's the same stuff. You know, Steve calls in, Oh we got you know, we have a pay raise in eight years, and nobody else got that. Like, I've got tweets and emails, I got loaded phone lines and people are like, oh, yeah that was us. Yeah we got furloughed. That's what I mean. Like, you think this stuff doesn't happen to anybody else, and it does. It does. That's all I'm saying it does. Man, all right, if you're listening to this show, you know I try to keep up with all sorts of current events, and I know you do too, And you've probably heard me say get your news from multiple sources. Why well, because it's how you detect media bias, which is why I've been so impressed with ground News. It's an app and it's a website and it combines news from around the world in one place so you can compare coverage and verify information. You can check it out at check dot ground, dot news, slash pete. I put the link in the podcast description too. I started using ground News a few months ago and more recently chose to work with them as an affiliate because it lets me see clearly how stories get covered and by whom. The blind spot feature shows you which stories get ignored by the left and the right. See for yourself check dot ground, dot news, slash pete. Subscribe through that link and you'll get fifteen percent off any subscription. I use the Vantage plan to get unlimited access to every feature. Your subscription then not only helps my podcast, but it also supports ground News as they make the media landscape more transparent all right, so I got tons of messages. Here tell Susie. In order to do my job, I have to buy my own t rock, my own tools, gas increased, insurance, workers comp commercial car insurance and health insurance, pieces of equipment, and many other things. All right, we got Spencer up. Next, Spencer, I'm going to give you a minute because I got a lot of people I want to try to get on welcome. Hey, hey, Pete, here's a good one for you. It's called Bailey Fested. And back in the eighties, the legislature kept freezing raises and saying next year we'll fix it, and then next year they said freeze wage. And the next year, well, finally there was a lawsuit and all of those teachers who made at least five years continued service during this time would get their pension state tax free when they retired. Oh no, yeah that yeah. Yeah. On top of that, if you were in the four to h one kent eighty nine or eight, I can't remember which year it was, but if you were in the four to oh one k, after you retired and you had to do the RMDS, you know, the required minimum distribution, that was tax free as well. Yeah, Spedzer. I appreciate the call man. Thank you. Here's a message from Melissa says, I recently found out that a nurse with ten years experience and less education makes the same as I do with twenty five years experience and the extra education and certification. So it happens in every profession. Pete, I'm losing my mind. I'm not busy now because I have a morning appointments and more evening appointments. I went to the office at six fifty five am. I don't look at days off. I work like it's a normal day, sheep. The Feds have limits my compensation and I pay fee after fee after fee. This is Eric. Hello Eric, welcome to the show. Hey Pete, I wish you would have given me Susie's time. I am also a retired teacher Charlotte Mecklenberg Schools. I retired last June. Thank you, sir. When I started back in the day, I knew exactly what the payscale was. It wasn't like as if it was a surprise. I hate when teachers act all surprised on what their pay is. If I wanted to get a higher paying job, I could have gone into something else. When I started out, I realized that my pay was low and I wanted to get into coaching, but that supplement wasn't enough, so I started a business. It was a lucrative business that I had for a while and I sold and it was a good choice to supplement my income. I also won perk for being a teacher is you can accumulate your sick days. I was able to retire two years early because I had two years worth the sick days. Now I'm collecting a pension, and I also went into the private sector to teach, so I'm double dipping. I got a considerable raise based on my plan. Teachers, we need to stop getting this having this idea where we lose focus on the difference between equality and fairness. The fact, the fact of the matter is we are not equal to someone that is managing a you know, a fund, or you know someone that is you know, a real estate broker that's getting high commissions. That's not how we get compensated. You have to be realistic and find ways. Another thing that I did is for twenty years I was National Board certified. When you get that certification, the state gives you a twelve percent pay increase and that was also on top of the twelve percent, on top of the local supplement as well. And that's another thing that teachers need to understand, those local supplements. Yes, that is summer pay, and it varies from district to district. Charlotte Mecklenberg is one of the top ones. That's why I stayed there for as long as I did. It's about ten yeah, thousands of dollars of decreased. Yeah, it's like ten k. You're right now, it's ten thousand dollars the supplement take Yeah, Eric, I I got a run. I appreciate the call. It's great information. I should have given you Susie's time. You are correct, all right, that'll do it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. I could not do the show without your support and the support of the businesses that advertise on the podcast, so if you'd like, please support them too and tell them you heard it here. You can also become a patron at my Patreon page or go to dpetecleanershow dot com. Again, thank you so much for listening, and don't break anything while I'm gone.