Talking Taqiyya with a Muslim | Hour 2

What's going on? Thank you so much for listening to this podcast. It is heard live every day from noon to three on WBT radio in Charlotte. And if you want exclusive content like invitations to events, the weekly live stream, my daily show prep with all the links, become a patron, go to the Pete calendar show.com. Make sure you hit the subscribe button, get every episode for free, right to your smartphone or tablet. And again, thank you so much for your support. So Friday on nine 11, um, I did an hour, the third hour, and I talked about the headline of the hour was the problem is Islam. Okay. And I made a point. I'm not saying Muslims. I'm saying Islam. This is an ideology. Okay. It's not a person. It's an ideology. So if any kind of criticism of the ideology is is going to be shut down because its adherents accuse me of attacking them, then what you're saying is that there can be no criticism of Islam. So what I wrote was, for the description of the podcast, was, it's an uncomfortable truth that too many are afraid to utter, but the problem with terrorism is Islam. Note, I did not say Muslims. I said Islam. A large number of Muslims may not endorse terrorism and violence, but that does not negate the Quranic permissions and requirements for violence. As such, it is incompatible with the U.S. Constitution. Okay? That was my assertion. And rather than anybody engage with that argument... When local media Muslim Jabril Huff, because he's all over the media. I got another story. He's in a story here at Queen City News. He's quoted in this story. He's like the de facto face, the rep for like the Muslim community, Jabril. And he comes across as mild-mannered and affable, likable. He doesn't dress in like Middle Eastern attire. You know, he's wearing like Hornets jerseys. He's going to Panther games, getting his picture taken with, you know, famous Panthers and stuff. So he's a, he is a very media friendly spokesperson. And, and I suspect that is useful. So he, He was not happy with what I said in this program, and he took it and he posted it onto his Facebook page. And he then– for some reason, he's trying to make a big deal about the fact that we are owned by Urban One Radio. I'm not really clear because he doesn't make the assertion. And this is a common tactic on the left. It's like state your assertion. Make the case. You know, wrestle with the concepts being discussed rather than just calling somebody names. Deal with the merit of the argument. Show me where I'm wrong, right? But they don't do that. This is just an attempt to cancel. So I'm not going to read their full names, the people that are commenting in response. although it is publicly available. If you're on social media, you can see this stuff, but here's what some of the people's response. And they obviously did not listen to the program. They just read off of the link that he screenshotted. He put it in there. So what I just read to you, what my program description was on Friday, he just put that in there. So everybody's now commenting on my stated assertion. So let's see if we can find anybody who, dealing with the, uh, the con, uh, the concepts, right? We've got, uh, one guy named Nassif who says he's so confident. Why not invite a Muslim to the conversation? See how long those conspiracies hold up. Okay. Um, the phone lines are open. They are always open. Anybody can call in and discuss this stuff. Number one, uh, number two, uh, I'm not sure what conspiracy I promulgated there. What was the conspiracy? I read in the last hour, right, if you're objecting to this notion that there are Quranic verses that call for violence and you're saying that that's a conspiracy, okay, well, that's not true. And if it is a conspiracy, it exists in Islam. I'm just merely pointing out that Like you've got people who interpret the very same texts differently and they use them to justify violence. And as evidence for this, I would point to, oh, I don't know, like world history for 1400 years, maybe. Seems like, I mean, yeah, like you just look at the way Islam spread and it wasn't through, uh, it wasn't through proselytizing. It wasn't like, look at how great our religion is. It was convert or die after we've, you know, slaughtered your armies. Like that's, they conquered like three quarters of, uh, Christendom. So, uh, there is that. Uh, so I'm not sure what conspiracy theory, uh, or conspiracy I am, uh, I'm promulgating on that one. And then, yeah, this guy Diab, or Diab, these are the same people who would lynch black people. Simple-minded, hateful devils. Okay? It's not... And cowards, throws in Jabril. Yet supported by a black-owned media company. There it is again. It's almost like he's trying to, like, drum up some some intersectionality here or something like, again, he's not stating what exactly is his beef there. Aziz says, another dumb Zionist cracker. And Jabril responds there, sadly, he has a great influence on other ignorant crackaloids. I must admit, I did not know I was so influential among Crackaloids, mainly because I was not even aware of this term. I've never heard of this term, never seen it. What does that mean? What does this word mean? This is so stupid. Exactly. That's right. Oh, yeah. Okay. One thing I ask is what has any Muslim done anything to you? if you can be honest, you would say nothing, but it's nothing that scares them. Nothing at all. So I said what I said, he and those who think like him are a bunch of dumb asses. Okay. Um, what has any Muslim done anything to you? I think I know what you're trying to ask there. Um, it probably would be a better question, uh, further removed from nine 11 Aziz. So, there's that. Um, well, how about this? Um, up until what, uh, three months ago, we were, we all had to take our shoes off in the airport, right? Why, why do we have to do that? That was somebody doing something to me. Um, and then this one too, uh, Their style of Christianity is what I find incompatible with a free society. I'm not sure what style of Christianity I have that is incompatible with a free society. I'm not sure. So again, nowhere in any of these comments, and I'm not going to read any more, but you get the gist. Nowhere in any of these comments do you find somebody actually engaging with the assertion, with the argument. But he went on to Queen City News to talk about You guessed it, Islamophobia. We'll get to that. Oh, and every 9-11 tweet that Abdul El-Sayed did not want us to see. All right. For over a year now, you've heard me talking about Create A Video, great local company in Mint Hill that has helped more than two million families preserve their memories by turning old photos. 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They'll professionally turn your shared moments into a beautiful storytelling video that your whole group can stream and download and treasure for years. Check out GroupTravelVideos.com. That's GroupTravelVideos.com. Or call 704-846-7870, extension 206. And when you do that, ask for Katie. But Pete, can I just email? Well, yes, you can. You can email Katie. Katie at GroupTravelVideos.com. Group travel videos from old memories to new adventures, preserving life's moments for a lifetime. All right, let me jump over here and chat with Ralph. Hello, Ralph. Welcome to the show. Well, from a perspective of a crusty old cracker to Jabril and everything, I would go back in history to the general of Japan who says, I think we woke up a sleeping giant. And I'll let the radio listeners just have a little bit of imagination. I think American people are tired of it. I know I am. I got three granddaughters. What is that they call people where they can lie to advance their agenda in their religions? Takiyah. Takiyah, yeah. I think a lot of people, we're kind of over it, and I hope we just are not going to take it anymore. A good theme song for your podcast of that segment would be Tom Petty's Don't Back Down. Yeah, that's a good song. Ralph, thanks for the call. I appreciate it. Let me What is this? Hasif. Hasif, welcome to the program. Hello. Hey. Hey, did I pronounce your name correctly? Hasif? Nasif, what do you mean? Nasif. Okay. Yes. Sorry about that. Yes, sir. You're live on the radio. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yes, I was just coming to provide some context on things being said about a religion that most people are talking about that don't practice. Mm-hmm. What's the context? Specifically, even the last caller, you know, what he said about being able to lie. This is like a egregious, misinformed, contextless statement where if you put it in context, it's the preservation of life. If somebody is about to kill you. If somebody has a sword to your neck and the only way that you can survive is if you just denounce your religion, then God allows you mercifully to denounce your religion, but it still holds strong in your heart. And if you don't choose to, then that's your choice. But God allows you a choice. This is a religion of mercy. Protecting yourself is a mercy. When you talk about war and you talk about fighting or whatever have you in the Quran, it's oftentimes solely to protect oneself against people who are fighting against them. And the Bible has laws of war and so does the Quran and other instances as well, other religions. Simply the same. But many people quote this, this, this, this passage of the Quran where it says to fight them wherever they stand. I haven't talked about that. So you, you, you were talking about Takiyah first, right? So let's, so let's focus on that. Yeah, we can stay on that. Okay. So legal concept, right? Yep. Okay. And refers to the practice of concealing your faith or beliefs, right? Uh, not necessarily. It's, uh, referring to the concept of, uh, preservation of life. Right. But in order to preserve your life, you can conceal your faith or belief. Yeah. Right. So you can lie if you feel like your life is in danger. What about, uh, persecution? No, it's not if you feel like your life is in danger. It's if your life is actually in danger. Well, yeah, but I mean, I mean, I'm assuming that, uh, that that would be a feeling. You can't just say, oh, I feel like my life is in danger of being in an entire country where everything is free and we have rules and regulations and a constitution and say my life is in danger. How about, right, so are you a Shia or Sunni? I'm not on. They approach this term differently, right? Yes. I would be more Sunni than Shia. So you. So you're more Sunni than Shia on this term? I don't like to categorize. It's a political difference more so than many, but that's the category people have. Put themselves in, yes. Don't the different sects believe that the other one has been corrupted? It's not that simple. They're not following the true prophets' lineage? No, no, no, we don't believe that. Right. No, they all believe in the creed and the oneness of God. Right, but who came after Muhammad is the disagreeing split, right? Who came after, yes, that's political rule. So not much to do with religion itself. Right, but Shia and Sunni approach this term, this idea, this concept of taqiyya, they approach it, you have different understandings. So when you say that you're more on the Sunni side of it, because they view it as more of a temporary, extraordinary concession. Yes. Right, but Shia don't. Shia, you're a little different. Yeah, nowhere in the religion, even in the Quran, does it allow you to lie without just cause. Without just cause. Right, so if you're being persecuted, are you allowed to lie? What is the definition of persecution? Just whatever your understanding of that term means. Persecution, my understanding is that somebody has a gun to your face or somebody is oppressing you. Somebody is like kicking you out of your land or corrupting your rights as a human being. And yes. OK, so right. So you can lie and that's just so right. So you in order to protect yourself from oppression, you can you can also lie. So it's not just for the imminent danger of death. No, the imminent danger of death is oppression. Well, you also said kick you out of your land or something. So that's not— Yeah, if somebody is— That's not death. Like, you go or die. If you go or die, like, you know— Well, then you just go. Guns to your back, right? Right, right. So if somebody says, like, yeah, you got to leave or you're going to get killed, then you can leave. You don't have to lie, right? You can just leave. Yeah, you can just leave. Right, so you wouldn't be able to lie then. If lying is going to protect you from danger or something like that? No, from getting kicked out. Getting kicked out is not just like you're going to have to go somewhere, like you got evicted from your house or something? No, no. You said your land. If you get evicted from your house? No, you said if you were getting kicked off your land. Yes, if somebody has taken you and your livelihood... like you. Have the, uh, so then you've got clearance to lie. You have the clearance to protect yourself. You're going to die. Yeah. Like what we're talking about is what we're talking about is the lying part. That's a key. Hang on. Can you hang on? Cause I got to go to do a newscast. All right. Hang on. All right. We'll have more with Nassif in a moment. Uh, before the, uh, break there, we got a call from, Nassif, and I asked him if he could hang on through the news, and we're going to find out if he did. Hello, Nassif, are you still there? Yes, yes. All right, good, thank you. I appreciate you hanging on. All right, so when last we spoke, we were discussing the concept of Takiyah, and you had laid out the certain parameters that... Dad. What's that? No, I'm sorry, that was my one-year-old. Oh, that's all right, that's all right. Um, so you had laid out the parameters, but we also got into like the difference between like Shia and Sunni. They have different understandings, uh, or application, uh, of this concept. Um, and the, where, where you lose me is your, your text is saying that you are allowed to lie. Yep. Okay. And Does Allah... It doesn't just. Say you're allowed to lie. I said it doesn't just say you're allowed to lie. It says if you fear imminent persecution. Or death, then you're. Allowed to lie. Right, then you're allowed to lie. You can take the nonbelievers as allies if you fear danger. Sure. That's a good point, too. Non-believers, there's a difference between a Catholic and a Christian in the Quran. Yeah, I'm aware. I'm aware. That's not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is that in the Quran, it is telling you that God allows you to lie. Like, in fact, instructs you that you can do this, and maybe you even should. It doesn't instruct you. It's a choice. It's a choice that you're given. Well, for Sunnis. Right, for Sunnis. The Shia look at this a little differently. This is like It's like corners. If we're going off of the Quran, if we're going off the Quran, which is clear, it's a choice. It's a choice being given, and so there's no debate in that. Okay, so in your view of Allah, is Allah deceptive, or does Allah glorify truth? The Lord's last truth in the Quran also says that speak out and stand for justice, even if it's against yourself, even if it's against your parents, even if it's against your relatives, no matter what, right? And so he gives, so he is just, he is the most just, he is also the most merciful. And he gives us a means to protect ourselves in times of, you know, very strenuous, dire circumstances. Yeah. So he says, right, so, but your God is telling you that it's okay to lie. It is okay in very strenuous, dire circumstances where you're trying to. Right, but you're saying that. You're saying that. Imagine you have... I. Don't need any more examples. We're getting to the core concept here. I'm telling you what the concept is. Yeah, I know. My core concept is about whether or not a truthful God would instruct his followers to lie. Because lying to me, like lying is bad and God is good. And so I would not be lying. Right. So that's what I mean. So that's why I said you lose me. But look, if a burglar came into your house and said, where's your wife and kids? And you told them they're at the other house across the street, would you be considered bad for lying? No, but my God doesn't tell me to do so. My God doesn't say to lie. What do you... I'm not understanding, but you understand. What do you mean you don't understand? So you understand that there is a situation or circumstance in which it is just, it is very acceptable to lie in a sense. Not in a sense, to lie. About your faith. Right, to lie about your faith. Well, the thing about that verse in the Quran is that is centering around the fact that God knows what's in your heart. So you can't really lie about that. You can only just confuse somebody who is ignorant enough to force you to denounce your faith out of threat of persecution. That is one way it's used. Sure, I mean, that's what the Quran is talking about, but that's not the way it's always employed, no? It doesn't matter what you think about it. It does matter what, I mean, to me, it matters what I think about it. I mean, but your opinion and God's opinion are two different things, right? So you taking what God has said and there being, you know, extensive scholarship about it, and then you just drilling it down to your boxed-in opinion is not doing it justice, right? I think I've treated it very fairly. I don't think so because. What have I said that's been unfair? What have I said that's been unfair? You just create a double standard, like that you understand that lying is necessary in certain circumstances. You understand that your religion, for some reason. Doesn't give you the— There's no reason to lie about your faith in God. So if somebody has a gun to your head, you don't give them the mercy of lying? Do you see what's happening in Nigeria? What about it? Do you know what's happening there? What is happening in Nigeria? A genocide of Christians at the hands of Muslims. I don't think it's a... Oh, yeah, it's like 50,000 at this point. And the reason they're being slaughtered is because they refuse to reject Christ, which is actually, that's a really big deal in Christianity. Like, you're martyred for Christ. Yeah. See, there's a difference. Right, that's what I'm saying. There's a difference. What's that? A lot of ISIS would kill Muslims. I know that. Yeah, I mean, Muslims are usually the worst. They're the most victimized by your Al-Qaeda types and your ISIS types and all that. Absolutely. People that use the religion for something it's not meant for. They poison it with their own bias. Yes, they poison it with their own bias. I'm not so sure that this is not what Islam has been for. It poisons Christianity with their own bias. I'm not sure. Just like... The Crusaders are the slave, transatlantic slave trade would poison Christianity with their own bias and make it so that they are justified in doing what they're doing under religious grounds, right? Forcing people to become Christian under religious grounds, right? Who is forcing people to be Christian? This transatlantic slave trade. The transatlantic slave trade forced people to become Christians? Yes, yes. Slaves were forced to denounce their previous religions. What religion did they have? 30% of them were Muslim. Well, the Muslims were actually involved in that slave trade. You know that, right? You can say what you want. No, I'm not saying that. Nobody's predicted how slavery would come in fruition in the States and how brutal it would be. Muslims were taking slaves for centuries. The biggest slave market on planet Earth was controlled by Muslims. Right, so I'm still not clear how you're saying that the transatlantic slave trade. Forced people to become Christian? You're talking just about, what, the 30% of Muslims who were captured from Muslim lands by Muslims and then sold into the slave trade? And they were forced to be Christians on their plantations. And you think this was. And documented with Christianity. So that's... relevant to the discussion about Takiyah how? Because they basically lied about their beliefs, or did they actually become Christian? No, many of them may have had to lie about their beliefs. Did they go back? All of these Muslims, did they turn back Muslim after being freed? You think 400 years of oppression and slavery is going to be easy to come back from? No, I don't know. You say that they had to lie about their conversion, so I guess they didn't pass down what their real faith was? Like, I'm just asking you these questions because I've never heard anything like this before, and so I'm curious, like, about the logic on it. What happened to the– wouldn't there have been like this underground Muslim slave society that we would have seen the explosion of or rebirth of Islam in the southeast right after the Civil War? No. Things, rebirths happen as God pleases, right? The Nation of Islam was a similar rebirth or whatever have you, but that's beside the fact. So there wasn't one. Slaves from different countries and different faiths and different languages, you put them all in one place, it's hard for them to communicate in those aspects and uprise. And especially when you do the brutality that we've seen as slaveholders do. I don't know if you're aware of that. of what tactics and brutal torture was used. No, I've never heard anything about slavery in America. Never. I've never. Yeah, well, you should read up. Yeah, no, totally. I have to first figure out what is slavery, I guess. I've never heard any of it. Well, Nassif, this has been interesting. I appreciate the call. Yes. All right, take care. I want to say I appreciate Nassif calling. as I said, you know, earlier, the phone lines are open. So, you know, people can call and challenge and disagree all the time. There's also the text line, which I shall read from now. Yeah. So, so yeah, he's, Nassif was objecting to sort of the oversimplification of this Takiyah concept to just being about, they can lie to us. Right. But this is the thing, like, If you have texts that give you the green light for that and now you're like, well, we got the scholars and they've interpreted it this way, right? But there are different understandings of these interpretations. And if I feel like, you know, not my life is in jeopardy. but which is one, that is one understanding of it. But if I want to avoid significant harm, well, what is harm? Well, I'm not allowed to practice my faith. I'm, you know, I want, you know, prayer mats set up everywhere or whatever. Like what is your definition of harm? And then things become permissible, you know? All right. That'll do it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening. I could not do the show without your support and the support of the businesses that advertise on the podcast. So if you'd like, please support them too and tell them you heard it here. You can also become a patron at my Patreon page or go to the Pete calendar show.com again. Thank you so much for listening and don't break anything while I'm gone.