Reaction to Tariff Day (04-03-2025--Hour2)

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[00:00:29] Let me quote Mary Catherine Hamm, who says she has a trade deficit with Bojangles. And that's not inherently bad. She buys biscuits from Bojangles. She gives the money. Bojangles has no need for her podcasting skills, as she says. Bojangles doesn't require anything that she has except for the money. So she gives them money. She buys the biscuits.

[00:00:57] She is happy with the purchase. Her life is enriched by having the biscuit and maybe some chicken. I don't know. But that's the trade, a voluntary trade. That is a trade deficit for her to Bojangles. Does that mean that somehow or another Bojangles needs to be taxed for selling the food to her that she wants? Right?

[00:01:22] If you don't think that the product being sold here has a value, then don't purchase the product. But Americans do put a value on lower cost goods, like televisions, for example. Right? You can buy a TV for $300. It's nicer than any TV you've ever owned for way more. Americans like that. That improves their standard of living. They have nicer things.

[00:01:50] Right? I mean, that's the idea of free trade. So, and fair trade. I will, I should also point that out too, because it's got to be fair. Right? And if you're dealing with a country that keeps slapping tariffs on American imports and you want to make an argument that they're not behaving fairly, they're keeping us out of their markets, then yeah, I'm open to having actual reciprocal tariffs.

[00:02:16] Like, if you want to make that specific of an argument, but all those countries now that, that now have a 10, because he, he, Trump put a 10% baseline tariff on everybody. So, like there, there, like there's an island. Have you heard about this? Let me see here. I'll pull it up here.

[00:02:35] There is an island, Heard Island and McDonald, Heard Island and McDonald Islands. Has a population of zero. They got slapped with tariffs. Has a population of zero and is inhabited only by penguins. So, like, I don't understand why is that one in the list? How did that one make the list?

[00:03:02] There was another one. I forget what it was called. All it is, is a, there's like 18 people there and it's like a weather station facility. And they got hit with a tariff. And that's the kind of thing that, you know, when I'm looking at the, um, the structure and the nature of the tariffs, it makes me wonder, was this thing done by AI or something?

[00:03:28] Like, how, like, how did they figure some of these, some of these tariffs? And then like, we have a formula that we used in order to do this. It was my understanding that there would be no math. Right. And so now I'm doing math. Like, man, guys. And apparently the formula is trade deficit divided by imports.

[00:03:58] That's it. So it's not looking at currency manipulation. It's not looking at, um, you know, non-tariff protectionism. It's not looking at things that are, I remember the big one years ago was like something about Japanese baseball bats. Remember this one where they wouldn't allow any of the Louisville slugger bats to be sold in Japan? And they didn't ban them. They didn't tariff them.

[00:04:21] They just set specifications for the bats that made the Louisville slugger basically unnecessary and unwanted in Japan. And like, that's, that's another way that you go about, you know, engaging in this form of protectionism. So, uh, that apparently was not, that's not the accounting. It was, they just looked at the trade deficit between the two countries and then they divided it by imports.

[00:04:49] And they came up with a percentage and that's how they, and that was the number they used for the tariff. Like, that seems pretty arbitrary. That's not reciprocal. What are we doing? All right. Let me go back to the phones here. Steve, welcome to the show. Thanks for hanging on. Hey, Steve. Hey, Pete, how are you? Hey, I'm good. What's up? I'm listening to your arguments. The Bojangles ones doesn't make any sense to me. Why not? Talking about nation states and not a transaction.

[00:05:17] I mean, you think of Adam Smith and what he talked about in the, um, government thing, nations. Um, it does make sense when trying to do, when I'm describing a trade deficit, it is, it is analogous. You have a trade deficit with the restaurant that you're buying food from. Right. Okay. But we're talking about nations now overall. Yeah. It's strategic to have manufacturing in the United States. Mm-hmm.

[00:05:47] I understand that. Because if you can't produce anything, you can't make tanks one day and you can't make armaments one day. I agree. And they've been, the globalists have been hollowing out our country now for 50 years at least. And we don't make anything here. We have assembly plans.

[00:06:05] And when you don't have capital, um, investment in our country, well, there are jobs created by high value jobs where people can go out to restaurants and do all those other things because they're, they're able to make a good coin. And people in this country are not. People are, are, are struggling. And what they spend is wholly due to, um, how should we say?

[00:06:35] Uh, you know, like our needs as opposed to our own ones. Are able, you know, we used to be able to travel and things. You can't do that anymore because most people just have to support their family and get them fed. So how do tariffs, so how do tariffs correct all of these problems that you've just outlined? Well, because we're reshoring our industries. Right. So do you know how, uh, I said this earlier, we are, America is the second largest manufacturing nation on the planet.

[00:07:03] We manufacture more than, you can disagree, but it's, you'd be incorrect. It is the second largest behind China. And then the third place is Japan and it's not even close. So like we, we're number two. We also have about half a million unfilled manufacturing jobs in America every month. I hear what you're saying, but we assemble things. We don't make things hardly anymore.

[00:07:33] We have the difference. We have expensive things made in Canada, in Mexico. But what has really produced here? What, what are we doing? We're just putting parts together. Yeah, we, we, yeah, we have higher, we have higher tech manufacturing. We have higher, we have higher technology manufacturing. Now, if you want to go back to an assembly line, right? Kind of a mentality and put everybody on an assembly line and hire more workers when you don't really need to. Right.

[00:08:03] That's why, I mean, that's the whole point of you using, importing pieces of the stuff that you want to assemble. You manufacture something someplace else because people don't want those jobs. It could be done cheaper in a poorer country, like that kind of thing. And then you import that in, you assemble it all. You, you do the high tech assembly in America and you pay those people way more money to do that stuff.

[00:08:30] So, so it's, but it sounds, so it sounds like you want to, it sounds like you want to go back to a time where people were working factory line jobs. Is that it? Absolutely. Yes. We need that in this country. It's a strategic advantage. When we were the arsenal of democracy, we were able to produce. We can't do that now. We don't have that part of our economy anymore. It's been hollowed out and shipped offshore. But you're talking about, so wait, hang on a second. Are you talking about military contracting?

[00:09:01] I'm talking about all of it. Well, because the military, our, our military production facilities are all still here and they're scattered all over the country in important congressional districts. We're not importing that stuff. We're exporting that stuff. Some of it. Yeah. So yeah, I'm not, I'm not, it's not, that's not persuasive to me. I appreciate the call, Steve. All right. So spring is here, a time of renewal and celebrations.

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[00:10:23] Get all the details at createavideo.com. I do have a bunch of email. Or, well, I have those too. I have email, I have tweets, I got some callers, and I have a lot of audio. And I spent time getting this audio for you people and you're going to listen to it. No, I'm just kidding. I mean, if we, I mean, if I can, I will. In fact, here, let me do this. This is former U.S. Senator Pat Toomey. It's a doomy. And, I don't know.

[00:10:51] Anyway, listen to his, he was at a conference or something, and this was like a month ago. Okay. This, I'm afraid, is going to take us down a bad path. Dominic, I think that we're going to experience more aggressive tariffs than a lot of people think. Because the president really believes that what he really wants to go after is the trade deficits.

[00:11:15] What he really objects to, and from all of my arguments with him, I'm convinced that he believes, and if you listen to his language, he believes that if you have a trade deficit with another country, that is the measure of the amount that that country steals from you. And, that of course disregards that we get something when we purchase products from other countries. Correct. But this is the way he views it.

[00:11:39] He thinks that the Canadians are ripping us off because, you know, we buy some more goods from them than they buy from us. By the way, the difference is fully explained by oil imports that are quite useful and important to us. But, this is where we are. We're going to have to relearn this lesson. I do think the markets are going to respond very poorly, if I'm right. And, on April 2nd, we discover that we're having a more aggressive round of tariffs than we expect.

[00:12:07] And then there will be fallout in the real economy as well. So, at some point, this gets pulled back. I worry about the damage that's done. Right. So, that's my concern, too, is that this is rooted in a belief that Trump has that if there is any deficit, that that means we're getting cheated. And, I don't agree with that. I view it as we are purchasing stuff that another country is making that we want a lot of.

[00:12:33] We get those goods and services, and we are a wealthier nation with more disposable income. So, we are spending more money on those things. You know, we don't have – we don't grow bananas. Honduras grows a lot of bananas. We're going to have to now grow a bunch of bananas? I guess? I don't know. All right. We talked about comparative advantage as well.

[00:13:00] So, like, that's one of these other terms in economics that, like, Honduras has a better climate for growing bananas, and that's their comparative advantage. And so, they stick with growing bananas and export the bananas and make money off of the banana sales. Right? Unless you want to, say, put Americans into the fields and, you know, start working the banana farms. So, all right. Let me go back to the phones.

[00:13:29] Gary, welcome to the show. Hey, Gary. Hey, Pete. Hey. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. What's up? Okay. I have a few things on it. I think, one, Trump's the first person to address what we had happen through NAFTA and free trade with China. Yeah. And you did a good job of explaining the difference between free trade and fair trade because then the reality is we exported six million jobs from America from the 90s and 2000s. We sent them overseas.

[00:13:58] When we sent them to China, we sent child labor and slave wages. So, we're buying cheap electronics made by people either in factories where they have nets to keep them from killing themselves or anytime you have kids. You know, Nike's a famous example of it. Yeah. Of their labor. Labor. Abuse of labor overseas. So, I think part of it is addressing that. And I'm fine with that. Yeah, yeah, no. And I'm fine.

[00:14:27] Yeah, I'm fine with using tariffs as a weapon to get countries to not use child and slave labor. Right. And many people, when they say free trade, they never want to address that we exported our middle class and that we're benefiting from labor exploitation of other countries. They're fine with that as long as they get cheap TVs. And I think it was Bassett that said let them eat flat screens.

[00:14:54] In other words, we're importing cheap stuff from other countries. And it's exploitive of them. But I don't think our middle class and as a whole, we're better off than we were in the 90s. We do have, in total, a higher standard of living. I mean, I think a lot of people don't realize that.

[00:15:16] I mean, the average American, like I think a poor American, has a higher standard of living than a middle class Brit, for example. They don't own their own homes and stuff like that's. But we did that in the 90s also. And we had less people working multiple jobs. Now you have people doing Uber and, you know, DoorDash and things. And you want to count that as productivity.

[00:15:44] But, I mean, are those people doing that because they have to? Because they don't have a job that provides for them? It's both. You've been in North Carolina since the early 2000s. So you saw, you know, we export our cotton mills, our furniture plants, everything. We destroyed economies in this state and in South Carolina. And then at the same time, you have the opioid epidemic hitting at the same time.

[00:16:11] Well, the opioid epidemic hit about a decade later. But, no, I get your point. I mean, these are... No, in the early 2000s, you started having Oxycontin everywhere. Mm-hmm. Yeah, but NAFTA was in the early 90s, right? Right. But China, I believe, was in the early 2000s. Well, the most favored nation status. Yeah, look, you're not going to get me to defend NAFTA or the Chinese trade deals. And, look, Donald Trump renegotiated NAFTA.

[00:16:39] And now he's slapping them with more tariffs, right? Yeah, and I mean, his message is muddied. I think if he was more disciplined and he was like, hey, we're going to do 10 percent and we're going to bring back a percentage of manufacturing because you look at South Carolina, you look at what BMW has done for South Carolina. Right. That count with them and everybody else. They've transformed that economy. You have a port. You have an inland port. They do like 5 percent of the state's manufacturing is connected to BMW. Yeah, I believe it. Massive.

[00:17:09] I believe it. South Carolina. Yeah, I got to run. Great point, sir. I appreciate the call. Good to talk with you. Here's a great idea. How about making an escape to a really special and secluded getaway in western North Carolina, just a quick drive up the mountain? And Cabins of Asheville is your connection. Whether you're celebrating an anniversary, a honeymoon, maybe you want to plan a memorable proposal or get family and friends together for a big old reunion. Cabins of Asheville has the ideal spot for you where you can reconnect with your loved ones and the things that truly matter.

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[00:18:32] Yeah, I have experience in a couple areas on this. I work for the Department of Economic Development in Iowa, and I work for Wells Fargo as an IT person. And frequently what the Department of Economic Development would do is give grants to companies to hire people. So many of the grants like Wells Fargo gets come from taxpayers to give jobs to people, which is a good thing to stimulate an economy.

[00:18:57] But we're kind of doing this passing the kick in the can down the road. My family also worked in the cotton mills in Alabama. And I have to admit, I'm kind of sad when I drive through town here. I see a lot of these cool brick buildings that used to be the mill community. And that whole industry left. And then, I guess, the home decoration, the furniture business, a lot of that went to China, too. So we lose those.

[00:19:24] But then we need government money to come in and give people jobs like at Wells Fargo or wherever. I'm just saying there's something mixed up. I know it's opportunity. It's lower costs for labor. It's always playing some kind of game behind the scenes. And I don't know how long we can keep doing that. That's my point. Right. So the concept has always been the proverbial rising tide lifting all boats, right? That's always been the idea.

[00:19:53] That if another nation is developing, they don't have the wealth. But they can do work that when we were not a developed nation, that we were developing, right? That we were growing. And so we had a lot of low-skilled labor jobs. Right.

[00:20:16] But as the country became wealthier and wealthier and more educated and all of that, then you have people that don't want to do the jobs. The jobs don't pay enough. Because at the end, right, you've got, like, let's say a textile company. They're making T-shirts. Right. If you have to pay people more than the cost of the products you're selling, right, you're going to go out of business. So you have to be able to contain your labor costs.

[00:20:43] And if you are in a wealthy society with a high cost of living and high standard of living, then that's then going to mean you cannot produce the product for a price that doesn't bankrupt you.

[00:20:57] And that's why you would ship your production to another country, right, to make these goods that are low-skill, labor-intensive, and you can find people that, to them, that is a better option for them to take that job than in a country like ours. Right? Right. And so that's the whole thing.

[00:21:20] I think it would be great if, you know, let's say we would help Mexico do some manufacture for cheaper labor, but they wouldn't be sabotaging our country with, you know, the drugs and their issues. Right. And if you use the tariff, if Trump is using the tariffs in order to try to extract concessions on, you know, non-economic things like, you know, the war on drugs and the cartels, again, like, I understand that being a useful tool. Yeah.

[00:21:49] The only thing I would say about the cotton industry, though, is it's kind of, I think it may be unique in this way. My mom was really proud of working for the mills. She had little samples of the cloth they made. The quality was amazing, much better than the stuff we get from China. Yeah. Yeah. But anyway, there's a lot of, I have a lot of pride. I don't know how other people feel that lived in this area, but. Oh, yeah. No, absolutely. I remember when the mill up in Kannapolis closed. Yeah. And I went up there as a reporter and, you know, spoke with the people that were up there. And like, yeah.

[00:22:19] And here, but here's the thing. If the, if people purchasing the product don't care about the high quality of the fabric, that they're willing to buy something that is of a, of a lower quality. Again, that's the market telling you that they don't value that kind of quality in a T-shirt. They, they're totally fine buying a T-shirt for five bucks that they will wear for a year or two and then throw away.

[00:22:46] And we, you know, you may personally not like it or object to that and the wastefulness of it or whatever, but the market is sending those signals and the market is you. The market is me. The market is just all of us deciding what we want at any given moment. You know? Well, I appreciate it. Give me your time. Thank you. Yes, sir. Thanks for the call, Bruce. I appreciate it. So let me play some of these clips. This is Scott Besson on CNN with Caitlin Collins. He said, Trump has been a proponent of tariffs for a very long time.

[00:23:15] And the calculations were determined based on the tariffs other countries have on American goods and services. As important or sometimes more importantly, what are the non-tariff barriers? Is there currency manipulation and is there unfair subsidy to labor or finance costs? Yeah. And when you look at this on the reciprocal tariffs themselves, how did you come up with a calculation essentially in terms of what this looks like for each country? Because obviously we're looking at the numbers here. There are different ones.

[00:23:45] How did it? And I can. Let me just stop right there. Just ask the question. Don't explain all of this stuff. Just how did you come up with the calculation? That's the question. And she asked it and then she's backfilling, giving him all this time to think about his answer. Just ask the question and put him on the spot. You'll get a better answer. I see some of the countries disputing some of these reciprocal tariffs, saying that's not actually what we charge. What would your response to that be? Well, I can tell you USTR has the volumes of data and they've been doing it a long time.

[00:24:14] So and all this will probably be challenged in court. And I think that USTR and Trump's first administration won over 4000 lawsuits. So I think the data is very robust. OK, next up, can nations negotiate on these tariff rates that are set? Well, I think the mindset is let's just see where we are and then we'll see how President Trump feels about all this.

[00:24:42] OK, so it's essentially up to President Trump if he's in the mood to negotiate with some of these countries. Well, I mean, it's not the mood. It's the how. How are we seeing things? I think the real thing is going to be and that he's going to gauge the tariff level by it won't be necessarily the calls from the leaders. It's going to be the calls from industry saying, OK, how can we get these off? And he's going to say you can get it all.

[00:25:12] Bring your factory to the US. OK, so there's the repatriation argument to bring the manufacturing back. Here's my here's another one of my concerns, though, is that whenever you start doing these tariffs. Industries, businesses and such, they they start clamoring for through lobbyists through for relief for exemptions.

[00:25:35] And so the big companies and the ones who have the more the most power, the most access, they get exemptions. And smaller operators do not. That's also part of what happens with tariffs. All right. If you're listening to this show, you know, I try to keep up with all sorts of current events. And I know you do, too. And you've probably heard me say, get your news from multiple sources. Why?

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[00:26:49] Your subscription then not only helps my podcast, but it also supports Ground News as they make the media landscape more transparent. Back to this interview that Scott Besson, Treasury Secretary, did with Caitlin Collins on CNN. And Besson said that. When you've got these other countries that have been doing it to us for a long time. And he says if they are so bad, then why do they do them to us?

[00:27:15] One of the messages that I'd like to get out tonight is everybody sit back, take a deep breath. Don't immediately retaliate. Let's see where this goes, because if you retaliate, that's how we get escalation. And then it becomes a full fledged trade war in your view. Not not a trade war depends on the country. But remember that the history of trade is we are the deficit country.

[00:27:44] The deficit country has an advantage. They are the surplus countries. The surplus countries traditionally always lose any kind of a trade escalation. So I did as a student of economic history or a professor of economic history. I divide against it. OK, so everybody just relax. We're putting these massive tariffs on you. Yeah, just don't respond. This is what I mean. Like the messaging here is not inspiring confidence.

[00:28:14] He was then asked why the global 10 percent baseline. That's not very targeted, right? Go back all the way to Alexander Hamilton. Alexander Hamilton used him to raise revenue. He used him to protect industry. And President Trump has added the third leg of the stool, which is strategic. So, you know, if we are thinking about a 10 percent global tariff and let's assume that we import about three trillion a year.

[00:28:43] So that's three hundred billion. And that's a substantial revenue raiser that could then be used for working Americans on no tax on tips, no tax on Social Security, no tax on overtime. And for those buying autos, they can reduce their bills because interest on American made cars will be tax deductible. So this is really a working class, the tariff and tax plan.

[00:29:15] Yeah, he didn't stick that landing very well. Yeah, I don't understand. Like you're going to. OK, so you're going to no tax on tips and all of these other things. But the people paying for the tariffs when this stuff comes into America, they're going to be paying the tariff as because tariffs are taxes. Unless, of course, they can get the. The companies to eat those costs, right?

[00:29:41] Those other companies located outside of America that they're going to have to absorb the cost. They're going to take lower profits, right? So three hundred billion dollars in revenue to the U.S. government coffers. That's what he says. Who's paying? We don't know. American consumers, the company that's importing it into America. Will American companies raise their prices to meet the importers? Prices. Right. Like if my competitor is an overseas company and they just got nailed with a tariff.

[00:30:10] So now their product coming into America is more expensive. Can I raise my price closer to theirs? You know, still keep it a little bit lower, but. I now can get bigger profits, no? So what does that mean for the consumer that was getting my product at a lower cost before? Now I'm raising my price to meet the the foreign companies. See what I mean? This is also complex.

[00:30:35] And this is the other part about this kind of approach that worries me is that I am a believer in free market capitalism because it is free. It is you. It is me. It is us all at the same time, different times, making all sorts of decisions, sending all sorts of market signals. Right. Creative destruction. All of that.

[00:30:55] And it is the fatal conceit of bureaucrats and experts, technocrats, progressives generally that they can control this stuff. This was the problem with communism is the problem with communism and Marxist economies and such is that they think that they can orchestrate all of these things. From the top down.

[00:31:17] And that's the beauty of the free market is that it doesn't require top down central planners that this is the wisdom of the crowd. Right. That everybody together is going to be smarter than even the smartest guy at the very top that's making decisions for everybody. They cannot possibly know all of the inputs for every single purchase.

[00:31:40] Finally, this is, oh, as more Americans bought, this is still Scott Besson or Besson, as more Americans buy goods that are not taxed with these tariffs. Right. To avoid the tariff and avoid these products coming in or the products just don't get imported and we just don't have access to them. That's the other thing here. We may not like some things you just might not see anymore. They may not be available for purchase in your local store because the tariffs are too high.

[00:32:09] But if people now stop spending the money on those products, doesn't that reduce revenue to the U.S. government? Policy done properly is a shrinking ice cube because what will happen, we will start out with high tariff income. But then as the factories come to the U.S., we will have more business income and we'll have more paycheck income because American workers will be earning. So you would see it's a rebalancing.

[00:32:39] So we rebalance away from tariffs to more domestic income. So that's the idea or an idea. We'll see if it works. Great experiment going on here and we are all the guinea pigs. Let's see how it turns out. Let me get to some emails. Robert says, how much of these tariff problems just go away when manufacturing companies come back here? Isn't that the goal? I assume that's one of the goals.

[00:33:09] But I have heard a lot of different reasons for these tariffs. And you heard Pat Toomey talking about his conversations with Donald Trump is that he really just does believe that if there is any kind of a trade deficit, it means that we're getting ripped off. And I believe, I disagree. And I believe that that represents a fundamental misunderstanding of trade. I do. Like that's because that's not what I gave the equation earlier.

[00:33:38] If I go into a restaurant and I buy food, I'm not getting ripped off. I'm buying something. That's it. Let's see. Scott says, didn't want to send you a link. Took a screenshot. These are the tariffs Canada had on our products before Trump took office. 250 to 300 percent on dairy products. And that's with, quote, free trade. So as I understand it, the dairy tariffs kicked in after a certain level, I want to say.

[00:34:06] So as to prevent flooding the market, right, and putting the Canadian growers out of business and all that. And so if you want, and I said this from the beginning, if you're going to do actual free trade agreements and you want reciprocal, actually reciprocal trades, like you tax us 10 percent, we're going to tax you 10 percent. That's fair. Right.

[00:34:31] But the figures that we have seen and how they arrived at the numbers that they threw out there yesterday does not seem reciprocal. The people who have been crunching these numbers over the last 16 hours, they're like, this number is based on the deficit, the trade deficit divided by imports. It's like that's not how you would determine what the tariffs actually are.

[00:34:57] And this gets very complex because you've got, like you say, you've got you got dairy, you got lumber, you got all these different sectors that have different tariffs all over them. That's not for everything. Right. We're selling stuff in there that is duty free and they're selling stuff into us that's duty free. But then there are other things that aren't. So a global universal 10 percent plus an additional 20 percent or whatever it is, that's not targeted. You know, that's another that's another problem.

[00:35:27] Companies and countries move means of production around the world. Tariffs must be anticipatory, says Bob. And Seth says, Pete, you can't trust people regarding the tariffs on that penguin island. You can't trust people that wear tuxedos 24 seven. Trust me if I can. OK. Let's see here. This is. Oh, hang on.

[00:35:53] Kevin says this tariff move is meant to get other countries to drop their tariffs and get U.S. goods into other countries, thereby spurring U.S. industry. I'm 90 percent sure this is a genuine move because if it's not, it becomes a tax on the poor. And the 60 percent of us consumers living paycheck to paycheck is the wealthy can deal with price increases, but many more cannot deal with even a 10 percent increase in the cost of living. Yeah.

[00:36:22] Again, I said this in the first hour. And if you're just tuning in, you didn't hear it, which is I don't know how this is going to shake out. I recognize my bias is opposition to tariffs because that has been the conventional wisdom, the understanding of economists. And everyone is has been pretty much in agreement that these things are like the Smoot-Hawley Act tariff act from 1930.

[00:36:50] It was like that's the or 37, whatever it was. Catastrophic. Prolonged the Great Depression. Reduces global trade. And in and of itself, as a me, if it's the end in and of itself, like. That's not a good thing. But. If we're going to run an experiment to find out, is that really the case? Well, we're going to find out. That's what I said from the very beginning.

[00:37:17] My bias is to be very concerned at what I am seeing with the tariffs and the way that they've been conjured and the way they've been applied. Because the risks seem to be very, very large. But if you can make them beneficial, if you can extract concessions and turn this thing into a positive for America, then. Okay, I will start thinking about tariffs in a brand new way. All right. That'll do it for this episode. Thank you so much for listening.

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